Dogs in Hammamet. Or: Four days without the internet and I have BUILT IT UP!

[webcowgirl]

I had to explain to a guy in a carpet shop yesterday what was wrong about the dog pelt they had for sale in their shop.

"In America, if you had something like this, your friends would never come to visit you anymore, and they would think you were a barbarian."

Of course, all of this conversation was in French so who knows what he heard me saying. I'm not really sure why it was supposed to make a difference that it was a Chinese dog. I mean, crap, they export their dead people to be put on display - should anyone really be so offended about a mere dog? And the Germans buy stuffed ducklings and baby tigers ... but really, who the f**k would want this thing?

I also told him it was like having the corpse of your grandmother in your house - just wrong and icky. I mean, I know Muslims don't like dogs/think they're unclean (and I saw only 5 dogs the whole weekend, PILES of people and almost no dogs, stray cats everywhere, they must have been in HEAVEN), but I really felt like I just wasn't making a bit of sense to him.

Thoughts?

Comments

[poh.livejournal.com]

Just thinking of a scene in Borat, when Borat's producer mentions that Pamela Anderson was at a rally against cruelty to animals.

Borat: "She's against cruelty to animals?"

*both shrug, at the same time* "Americans!"

[ms-vermilion.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised you were not making sense to him. The distinctions between different animals and whether it's okay to kill them are completely subjective and culturally-laden. Every killing practice offends someone, whether it's in the method, the species, the use of the dead body, or some other thing. Here in the United States we tend to get all upset over killing animals that are prettier, or cuter, or friendlier, but what's the core difference between a dog and a sheep? Or a cat and a turkey? Tradition dictates that we don't kill and eat dogs and cats, but we eat sheep and turkeys (and use their feathers and wool and leather), but the decisions are essentially pretty arbitrary.

(The differentiation between people and not-people is not an equivalent distinction because people are decidedly US, which changes the equation.)

[ironymaiden]

yup.
the debate about horsemeat is particularly overwrought.

[ms-vermilion.livejournal.com]

But we can't let the French come over and KILL OUR HORSES!

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I get the feeling a horse, alive, is frequently far more use than any dog.

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

I think some of my triggers have to do with the degree of trust you've built up with an animal. I don't think it's wrong to eat horses, I think it's wrong to spend an animal's life teaching it to trust and then *er* executing it. It depresses me. But I do think about it and try to understand how exactly my logic works. Why yes to pigs and no to whales?

For all I know, the dog in question could have been running around wild and not fallen under my scheme, but I still wouldn't want it in my house.

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, I come to the opposite conclusion of yours - it is better to give an animal a happy home that it can trust in, if you're planning to eventually kill it or just make use of it after it dies. As context, most of my family have farms where it's taken for granted that you will eventually turn your pet pig into chops and the chickens into Sunday dinner.

I'd have thought a dog pelt would be a rather crap rug, actually. However it would make sense to do something with the skins of culled animals - I wonder what happens to the pelts of deer culled in Britain? (the venison gets eaten, by the marksmen or other animals)

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

Well, overall my conclusion is best life for the animals you were eat, but not to make friends with them. They shouldn't ever be expecting you will hurt them, though, they should be treated with kindness.

[rosamicula.livejournal.com]

"In America, if you had something like this, your friends would never come to visit you anymore, and they would think you were a barbarian."

But you weren't in America. My thoughts are that should have just quietly hidden your own squickiness and politely walked on. What did you hope to achieve by trying to explaining your revulsion?

In context I think it made sense

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

The shop was aimed at tourists and my thought was that he would want to not be scaring them off (as most of them were western Europeans, English/German/Italian/Spanish).

Is this kind of thing okay in England? I guess if it is, I should have just left because I was just letting him know what an Americans perception was (which I thought was shared by the English at least if not the Germans, etc.), but he did seem curious about why I thought it was nasty.

Re: In context I think it made sense

[rosamicula.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see now you were trying to get him to make a good business decision:-).

It wouldn't be remotely okay in England because of the huge levels of hypocrisy and sentimentality about animals here. There was a brouhaha a few years ago about cat fur trimmings being used on toys and clothes and questions in the house about getting things labelled so that people knew it was cat fur. People would of course, be really upset, as they shovelled down their battery chicken burgers, to discover their kids were playing with toys made out of ickle fwuffy moggies.

The Spanish, Italians and Germans are much more sanguine about such things. I would have thought there would have been lots of French tourists there, too.

Re: In context I think it made sense

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a fair amount of French, too. I think they were the ones with all of the dogs.

I try really hard to be non-mental about my feelings about animals, that it's okay to kill and eat any of them that aren't endangered, but I get touchy where they are endangered/taught to trust us/spent a lifetime of service/are really intelligent. I hate the killing of monkeys and dolphins and parrots because I think they're really intelligent and have families and suffer when they lose one of their own, but - well, pigs are smart, too,and I love bacon. So I'm not quite there yet.

In general, for domestic animals, my thought is: we make a compact to take care of you for your life and make that a pleasant, healthy life, and all we ask for are a few unpleasant minutes at the end, which we will try to make as painless as possible.

Re: In context I think it made sense

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

I would not say this kind of thing is OK in England, but social policy here is pretty much to encourage social tolerance of cultural difference, which is at the heart of this issue. I would be shocked if any of my friends had a dog pelt rug, but would be equally shocked if trhey had a fur jacket, mainly because of social trends though. I bought Lili a second hand fur jacket for drag purposes though - she did not wear it very much , but considered spray painting "real fur" on it and wearing it more often :)

It is difficult to my mind not to see hypocrisy in eg people who wear leather but not fur, or eat beef but criticise those who eat horse meat. also, relative levels of poverty are relevant here - the more people on the poverty line, the less room there is for sentimentality about animals and the more seeing any animal as food, clothing etc.I know you were motivated by kindness but there is a touch of "USA, do what we say" about this.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Why try? respect cultural differences and all that, you know? the cows and lambs you eat dont consent :)

[inane-bugle.livejournal.com]

Alan Alda has a pretty good biography, entitled "Don't Have Your Dog Stuffed" that is a decent read.
http://www.alanaldabook.com/
The title comes from his parents' misguided attempt to ease the pain of Alan's pet's death by having the creature stuffed.

Actually, I have no problem with a dog pelt, but I also eat meat and dream of someday having a cushy leather reading chair.